If you’ve ever been suspicious about the motives of the left-leaning environmentalist movement, Episode #198 of The Holistic Survival Show is likely to only add to your paranoia. Join host Jason Hartman as he and renowned columnist, author, and Libertarian, James Delingpole, peel back the layers of the radical population control agenda at the heart of the green movement.
Delingpole is a regular columnist for both The Telegraph and The Spectator, and has recently written a book called, “The Little Green Book of Eco-Fascism.” It should be no surprise to learn that James won the 2010 Bastiat Prize for Online Journalism and devotes much of his waking time to plotting ways to escape British Prime Minister David Cameron’s neo-fascist Big Society.
And don’t miss Delingpole’s creative fiction. His series of WWII novels center on the adventures of an upper class reluctant hero who has the misfortune of winding up in most of the major military engagements of his generation – and that’s a lot.
Since he’s an active in the blogosphere and on Twitter, there are plenty of ways to keep up with Mr. Delingpole’s thoughts online.
In this Episode:
– Does the disappearance of incandescent bulbs signal the ‘end times’?
– How Adolf Hitler ran the greenest government in history
– Did Rachel Carson’s “Silent Spring” cause the death of millions?
– Why environmentalism is bad for business AND the planet
– The psuedo-science invented by greenies to bolster their cause
– Proof conservatives make the best conservationists
– How the internal combustion engine cured the horse manure problem
– The ultimate environmentalist goal…population control
– The mythical spotted owl, wind turbines, and much, much more…
Narrator: Welcome to the Holistic Survival Show with Jason Hartman. The economic storm brewing around the world is set to spill into all aspects of our lives. Are you prepared? Where are you going to turn for the critical life skills necessary for you to survive and prosper? The Holistic Survival Show is your family’s insurance for a better life. Jason will teach you to think independently, to understand threats and how to create the ultimate action plan. Sudden change or worst case scenario, you’ll be ready. Welcome to Holistic Survival, your key resource for protecting the people, places and profits you care about in uncertain times. Ladies and gentlemen, your host Jason Hartman.
Jason Hartman: Welcome to the Holistic Survival Show. This is your host, Jason Hartman, where we talk about protecting the people places and profits you care about in these uncertain times. We have a great interview for you today. And we will be back with that in less than 60 seconds on the Holistic Survival Show. And by the way, be sure to visit our website at HolisticSurvival.com. You can subscribe to our blog, which is totally free, has loads of great information, and there’s just a lot of good content for you on the site, so make sure you take advantage of that at HolisticSurvival.com. We’ll be right back.
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Start of Interview with James Delingpole
Jason Hartman: It’s my pleasure to welcome James Delingpole to the show. He is a columnist at The Telegraph and a columnist at The Spectator, a broadcaster for Ricochet.com and author of, and you’re going to love this title, wait for it… The Little Green Book of Eco Fascism. I love that title. James welcome, how are you?
James Delingpole: Thank you Jason. I’m very well. Yeah, you love the title, but fondly enough the greenies don’t like the title.
Jason Hartman: Well of course they don’t like the title.
James Delingpole: They think I’m toxic, and of course they hate being told they’re fascists. They think that fascism is a movement of the evil right, which actually I dispute by the way.
Jason Hartman: No, no. Fascism is a movement of the left.
James Delingpole: You’ve read liberal fascism too, I can tell.
Jason Hartman: I mean that’s what it is. People confuse these things. But yeah, it’s amazing. The environmental movement just wants to control every aspect of our lives. I’ll just give you one example, which you’re surely aware James, but I recently moved and my new home was filled with these CFL light bulbs, which I hate. So I went to the hardware store to buy some new bulbs and the whole isle is flooded with those things nowadays, those dangerous, toxic little light bulbs.
James Delingpole: With mercury… you’ve seen the photograph on the internet of the wounds that they can inflict if you accidentally tread on one. It’s hideous.
Jason Hartman: Yeah, don’t break one of those things without calling a hazmat crew. And they said within a year there will be no more incandescent light bulbs. Bush and Obama have just basically done away with them. And the cost was enormous to buy four of them. It was $11. I remember when it was just like three bucks.
James Delingpole: Well funny enough, there is actually a section in my book under “I” on incandescent light bulbs. Can I read it to you? It gives you a flavor of the book and where I’m coming from.
Jason Hartman: Yeah absolutely, but just so the listeners know, we’re going to talk about a lot more than this. We’ll get to that in a moment. Talk about the light bulbs for a minute.
James Delingpole: Yeah, okay. So incandescent light bulbs, I liked incandescent light bulbs. They were warm, they were bright, they didn’t flicker, they didn’t give you headaches, they didn’t take 5 hours to get going after you turned on the light switch, they didn’t require you to put on a Hazchem suit if ever you accidentally broke one, and best of all they let you see what you were doing. Not so, the grim and low energy eco-bulbs which we’re all forced to use now whether we like it or not. Whatever happened to freedom of choice? Isn’t that how traditionally we determined these issues in the capitalist west? We give the consumer a range of options, say nice bright cheap light bulbs in the one hand, ugly expensive deadly ones full of mercury on the other? And then let the consumer decide. This is it.
I can tell that you’re a man of the fellow libertarian persuasion and this is ultimately why I’m interested in environmentalism and why I’ve spent so much of my time studying it. Because I know I’m very much a small government and big personal freedom kind of guy. And what I see going on in the world right now is a world on the brink of a precipice and it’s uncertain which way it’s going to go. It could go the way I’d like it to go, which is more freedom, smaller government, lower taxes, etc., etc. or it could go the way it seems to be going at the moment which is more regulation, one world government, this new world order that you keep reading about in various green documents, and that frightens me.
And I think people need to be warned about it. Not in a kind of kooky crazy conspiracy theorist way, but actually looking at what these guys are saying, look at what is happening in the real world right now at the United Nations, in the European Union, in the regulations passed by the EPA, in the Obama administration generally. And what we see is green issues being used as an excuse for a kind of totalitarian control.
Jason Hartman: Well there’s an old saying about that: “Green trees have red roots” – meaning in communism, for those of you that didn’t catch that.
James Delingpole: Well my previous book, which I thought was going to be my last word on environmentalism, because I’d thought I’d said it all. It was about watermelons, obviously green on the outside, red on the inside. And the reason… watermelons dealt with the history of climate change and alarmism and it examined the background to the green movement and the real reasons why we have this climate change scare. And you can trace it back for example to the greenest government ever which of course was Adolf Hitler’s. You had the first clean air acts being passed in Nazi Germany. The Nazi Germans were big nature lovers.
Jason Hartman: It’s funny that they never thought people were a part of nature, I guess. Or at least not certain types of people: gays, Jews, gypsies.
James Delingpole: You’re absolutely right and you’ve made a good point that there is running through the green movement, a strain of vicious misanthropy. In fact one of the more conscious Russian points I make and I’ve made several times actually just because they hate it so much, the enemy, but you look at Rachel Carson’s 1962 best seller that launched a thousand greenies including Al Gore, Silent Spring. Silent Spring was responsible for the virtual banning of DDT around the world, in other words the most effective killer of Malaria mosquitos.
And so this caring environmentalist Rachel Carson condemned millions of people to a miserable painful death which they did not need to experience if DDT hadn’t been banned effectively on her say-so. And I say the only difference between Rachel Carson and Adolf Hitler was that Adolf Hitler was slightly more upfront about the need to control the world’s population and how he was going to do it. The modern greenies do it through the backdoor. But they’re not significantly less dangerous in their hatred of mankind.
Jason Hartman: Okay, very interesting. Well give us some examples of how the green movement obstructs business.
James Delingpole: Oh.
Jason Hartman: Where do you start? I know the list is rather long.
James Delingpole: Well, where do you start? I suppose let me make a more general point. I said that the green movement was motivated by misanthropy. You think of phrases like “the earth has a cancer – the cancer is man”. That’s a phrase from the club of Rome, this greenie organization from the 1960s.
But as well as this misanthropy, there was a strong vein of anti-capitalism there too. These guys really want to bring down western industrial civilization and the reason they do that is they think that economic growth is in and of itself a bad thing. Because of course as we know, economic growth involves depletion of these things they call scarce resources. And built into the green religion is the idea that we’re running out of stuff. We’re running out of oil, we’re running out of coal, we’re running out of everything. And the only way of helping future generations, the only way of caring for future generations is by essentially bringing the industrial system to a close by forcing us to ration goods. Well, there’s no evidence to support this idea that we’re running out of resources. Of course resources do get depleted, but ultimately…
Jason Hartman: But new resources are created, and new systems are created that use different resources… Malthus would be considered this incredible thinker by all of the world if he were right. The fact is that he was terribly wrong. This whole Malthusian ethic is just ridiculous.
James Delingpole: Yeah, and you go through history and you find that throughout the ages great men of the time believed that we were running out of stuff. So you had Lord Calvin at the end of the 19th century, the beginning of the 20th century worrying that we’d soon reach peak coal and that soon we were going to have to abandon steam ships and stuff and go back to the age of sail because there wasn’t going to be enough coal. And then had you gone into any major city at the turn of the 19th century, you would have found earnest committees meeting to discuss the gravest industrial problem of the age which was of course how to deal with the piles of horse manure that were building up in cities all over the world because of course, cabs were pulled by horses, transport was pulled by horses, well hey how did they solve this problem?
Did government step in to ration the use of horses as all the greenies would argue? Well no. Man in his ingenuity devised a new way of solving this problem called the internal combustion engine. So suddenly the horse manure problem ceased to be a problem, suddenly the peak coal ceased to be a problem, instead we had oil. And oil worked wonders for a time until we started getting these theorists and they began, this began quite early on in the age of petroleum, where people started worrying about peak oil. There have been about 5 peak oils I think when we were told that oil was running out.
Well, the oil is still going strong – we’re discovering new stuff all the time in the deep of the arctic and so on. After that we’ve got clathrates, these concentrated methane deposits under the ocean, we’ve got shale gas for heaven’s sake. Shale gas has transformed the US energy economy. We’ve got thorium. We haven’t even begun to exploit our thorium resources yet. So scarce resources ain’t a problem.
Jason Hartman: I would agree. There’s always something new. But the question is will there ever be a time which none of us know, when the gig will be up? When we won’t have a solution, when there won’t be a new invention, or new innovation or some ingenuity that gets us out of a pickle? It’s just a fair question to ask. So far we’ve done pretty darn well I’d say in developing the world and taming nature and making things work pretty well. And we are conscientious about species extinction and things like this.
James Delingpole: Which is a myth by the way.
Jason Hartman: Yeah, tell us about that.
James Delingpole: It’s a great urban myth. Let’s not forget that global warming, the whole global warming scare is just one theater of operations in a major war the environmental movement is conducting on western civilization. They’ve got all sorts of other areas. And sustainability and biodiversity are other ones. The idea that species are dropping dead because of man’s want and selfishness and greed is an absolutely myth which is created by this pseudoscience, ecology, the whole field of ecology was invented by greenies to justify more regulation, to justify these supposed experts going out into the field and sequestering these particular zones to protect nature from man’s depredation.
And you hear some scary figures quoted. The one conservation said 27,000 species are being eradicated every year, going extinct every year. And another conservation biologist said I’ll see your 27,000 and I’ll raise you to 40,000 species a year. And these figures are just plucked from the air. The number of species in which have actually provably gone extinct in the last five hundred years, it’s vanishingly small compared to the figures that are quoted by the greenies.
Jason Hartman: Yeah, well that’s interesting. Is there any good that comes from the green movement? Let’s try to be objective here.
James Delingpole: Listen, I do nothing but be objective.
Jason Hartman: Maybe just awareness, just general awareness in general? Is it right to conserve at all? We shouldn’t just be wantingly wasteful, right?
James Delingpole: No, not at all but I think that conservatives make the best conservationists, not liberals.
Jason Hartman: Do tell us about that. What do you mean by that?
James Delingpole: Well it’s interesting. As you can probably guess by my accent and I’m English, I love the English country side. And when I look at the English landscape I see a landscape which has not been ravaged by man but has been shaped to even perfected by man. Had you gone to Britain 2,000 years ago you would have found the whole place covered in forest. Well, obviously most of that forest is gone, but what you look at, the beauty of the English landscape is a landscape shaped for man’s delectation and use.
So for example, you get dry stone walls in parts of the country. And the reason we have dry stone walls is partly of course to enclose animals, but it’s partly because English country folk, particularly the land owning types did not want barbed wire fences. And the reason they did not want barbed wire fences was because they wanted attractive walls that their horses could jump over while fox hunting.
Now also what you find in the English landscape is lots of little woods dotted all over the place. These woods were put there in order that the pheasants could be reared for shooting. If you go to Scotland, you look at the hills and the hills look like patchwork quilts of browns and yellows and purples and the reason they look at way is because each year different sections of the heather are burned by the game keepers in order to create the young shoots that the grouse need to feed on, grouse obviously maintained for shooting.
Now, it’s interesting. Some studies have been done comparing land which has been managed by land owners for game shooting and so on, and land which is run by conservation bodies like our Royal Society for the Preservation of Birds, and there is actually greater biodiversity on the gamer states than the land managed by the environmentalists. And the reason for this is very simple – that environmentalists have this aversion to controlling these populations of species, and what happens when you don’t control different species is that one species comes to dominate. And this is a fundamental problem with the ecological view of the world.
Jason Hartman: Well look at the deer. They’re a great example of this is the deer population on the eastern states of the US. It’s just out of control which has caused the tick population, which is now causing a lime disease problem. This is exactly what you’re talking about. And another thing that you’re talking about is just the general concept of is people care for things that they have invested interest in, they care for things that they own, and it’s kind of like the tragedy of the commons, right? When it’s everybody’s, it’s nobody’s. because nobody really cares because it’s all someone else’s job. But if you own the land, you’re going to take care of your land. Now that is certainly true in concept and it’s been true in practice. I remember reading a Green Peace magazine after the fall of the Soviet Union, and in the early 90s there was expose after expose about just the massive amounts of pollution and this is what you get when the government controls the land rather than private ownership. Nobody cares – it’s nobody’s land. It’s everybody’s so it’s nobody’s if you will.
But with that said, and I’m sure we agree on those things, there are certain externalities. The problem of externalities which is the concept of if you own a manufacturing plant or you have a business, you care about making your widgets, and who cares if you pollute the river? It’s not your river. It’s like… there are externalities that are not priced in and capitalism doesn’t always do a good job. I think capitalism is massively imperfect – I just think it’s better than everything we’ve figured out so far. But there are issues. it’s not like it’s a perfect solution. So maybe talk to that a little bit if you would.
James Delingpole: Yeah, where does the worst pollution happen in the world? It happened in the 20th century mainly behind the iron curtain? Where does it happen now? It happens in third world countries, it happens in China to a degree. I think if you look at the environmental record or the free market economies, they are pretty good. We have clean air regulations, I have my doubts whether this stuff wouldn’t have happened anyway. This is one of the points that Julian Simon made. You know Julian Simon, the dooms slayer as he was known. So Julian Simon was once in a debate in London I believe and some lefty environmentalist was showing how industrial pollution in the city had declined since the introduction of the clean air act.
So what Simon did was he whipped out a chart going way, way further back and showed that when you looked at the totality of history the clean air act was barely a blip, that pollution was reducing anyway. I think one of the great greenie liberal myths is the idea, obviously I consider myself a classical liberal, I’m definitely not a liberal-liberal. One of the great greenie myths is the idea that the world divides into two kinds of people: environmentalists on one hand who care about nature and want to save the planet, and on the other evil capitalists who want to destroy it. Well I know lots of evil capitalists and I can say that when they go to take their kids to the beach they don’t think you know what would improve that beach? What it really needs right now is a nice juicy oil slick with maybe a few sea otters choking in tar?
Nobody thinks that way. We all want a cleaner planet. I don’t buy into this idea that businesses want to rape the land and pollute places. We have pollution laws in place. And look, just giving an English example again, the river Thames for example, the river that flows through London is infinitely cleaner than it was 300 years ago. We have been making progress and I think economic growth goes hand in hand with improved environmental safety. Because what happens is as people get richer they have more money to set aside on making things cleaner and nicer.
Jason Hartman: Yeah, very good points. The imbalance comes when, let’s take an example and we’ll get off of this in a moment, I know we’ve got more to discuss but on that externality concept if you will, if Dow Chemical wants to set up a plant and manufacture something and there is waste involved, and they’ve got to figure out what to do with the waste – they’ve got to put it somewhere. So it’s really cheap for them to maybe buy a big piece of land next door and just dump it there, even though it’s their land – they own it. But they make a decision that we’re just going to put it there because it was cheaper to buy the land than to do anything more proper with the waste. I’m not an expert on this, how you dispose of waste, but conceptually that’s the idea.
So that’s where capitalism, it doesn’t always work. And I am a hardcore capitalist, but I just don’t know how to answer that question. If I was in a debate with a leftist who was a greenie, I just wouldn’t know what to say to them.
James Delingpole: Well I think I have your solution for you. We haven’t got time to discuss this on the show now, but just look up Ronald Coase on the internet. He was an economist. He died recently, aged I think over a hundred. He dealt with this externality issue which of course was a favorite of Barry Commoner. Barry Commoner was your typical green junk economist. I don’t buy into this stuff. I understand your concerns, but I think the problem goes the other way.
The guys who are doing the damage right now are the environmentalists, and I’ll give you an American example: The way that the pacific north west forestry industry has been closed down by the Greenies in the name of preserving this mythical creature called the spotted owl, when I talk about the spotted owl being a mythical creature, I know the spotted owl exists but the real spotted owl differs markedly from the creature of the green imagination.
The creature of the green imagination only likes pristine forest and cannot settle anywhere else, it cannot breed anywhere else. Whereas the real spotted owl actually is perfectly happy. It can breed on second growth forest. Anyway, the spotted owl was one of the first example of which were many others. You’ve got the snail darter, you’ve got the polar bear, and so on, of animals being used as poster children of green scare mongering campaigns. And what the spotted owl was able to do was have whole areas of the pacific northwest sequestered by environmentalists, logging areas closed down. And what was the result of all of this? Well the problem is that if forests are not maintained what you get is this massive buildup of underbrush…
Jason Hartman: And they end up burning down.
James Delingpole: That’s right.
Jason Hartman: Happened in Big Bear – I remember it well.
James Delingpole: So there you are. Forests are meant to be burned down cyclically. And that’s good, and it’s how they renew themselves and how they get new growth and stuff. But what happens is when the forest is not cleared properly is you get as you probably know, massive, massive fires which produce such enormous heat that it burns beneath the top soil and it kills all the seeds underneath. So what you get is this wasteland. It always bemuses me the way that environmentalists, these guys who are supposed to care about nature and nurture it, these are the people who are doing the worst environmental damage. And we can talk about forests, we can talk about wind farms… wind turbines which are destroying the land…
Jason Hartman: You mean the guillotines for birds?
James Delingpole: Yeah, well I call them bat chopping, bird slicing, eco crucifixes. They cause tremendous damage. And you’ve got this perverse situation where you’ve got these organizations like the O Jibon Society, and various other conservation bodies arguing for wind turbines because renewable energy is good supposedly and supposedly clean and supposedly free, none of which it is.
Jason Hartman: No, it’s more expensive and it’s harmful to all sorts of creatures and has all sorts of side effects. It’s a myth. These are just big myths.
James Delingpole: Yeah, so I think as Mark Steyn calls them QE2 of the skies. It’s awful and it depresses me because I genuinely do love nature. I’m never happier than when I’m swimming in a river or walking up a hillside. I was brought up as a kid, my dad used to take me on walks and teach me about the newts at the pond at the bottom of our garden and I used to collect the newts, and study the galls on oak leaves, and learn that they were made by gall wasps. This whole element of wondering nature and living nature and appreciating it for its own sake seems to have almost vanished from people’s childhoods these days. It seems that nature is now a vehicle for guilt about mankind. And I think that’s a terrible achievement of the green movement.
Jason Hartman: Yeah, and it’s a method of control, and that’s the scariest thing about the environmental movement. I remember I had this one guest on, forgive me I can’t remember his name, but he was a Berkley professor that was basically spewing all the Malthusian stuff. I had James Kunstler on recently and he’s doing the same thing. And all of these people, when you get to the bottom line of the discussion, it’s that there are too many people. The population has to be reduced. And I keep wondering why they don’t praise or welcome another genocidal maniac. What we need is another Joseph Stalin or Chairman Mao if they want to get what they want. Those people were the great environmentalists – I would think they would believe that.
James Delingpole: We’ll scratch beneath the surface and that is exactly what they want. You can see them yearning for some kind of eco catastrophe which will prove them all right. I think they genuinely thing that overpopulation is a problem. I just don’t buy into it at all. Apart from anything else, the acceleration in population is reducing. I think the global population will probably peak at about 9 ½ billion.
Jason Hartman: But even if it doesn’t, human beings are the ones that came along and solved so many of our problems. People are a resource. The environmental movements just looks at them as a cost. Everybody is a cost. You’re an unwelcome guest on earth – if you’re a person you don’t deserve to be here. But the reality is people are resources.
James Delingpole: yes, I agree. That was always Julain Simon’s line, and I think he’s a hero, Julian Simon is. Julian Simon and Norman Borlaug I think are heroes. You’re familiar with Norman Borlaug aren’t you? Norman Borlaug was the guy responsible for the green revolution, that’s green as in the good sense of green. He was the guy who in the 1970s when people like Paul Ehrlich were writing books like The Population Bomb warning that we’re were all going to outstrip our ability to feed ourselves and we were all going to die horribly by the 1980s…
Jason Hartman: Yeah, that never happened. The opposite happened – we’re feeding ourselves too well.
James Delingpole: Well yeah, exactly. Obesity is a far bigger problem than starvation, isn’t it? Well Norman Borlaug was the guy who fed the Indian subcontinent. He enabled the Indian subcontinent to feed itself by developing these new strains of short stemmed wheat which were more suited to the conditions there. And it increased productivity massively. Now, no one’s heard of Norman Borlaug – even you haven’t heard of Norman Borlaug and you’re a kind of libertarian. But everybody’s heard of Rachel Carson. She’s got about 5 national parks named after her. She’s got a Rachel Carson day – it’s a topsy turvy world we live in and the values are forced values.
Jason Hartman: It really is amazing. It’s just amazing that such myths can be perpetrated on the public. What else would you like people to know?
James Delingpole: Well, I have this reputation among these greenies is this snarling big oil funded nature hater, and the opposite is true. And if anyone who listens to the show doubts the veracity of what I’m saying, just follow the links in my blogs, look up on the internet…
Jason Hartman: And do give out your website if you would.
James Delingpole: Oh yeah, well my website is Jamesdelingpole.com, just Google me and you can find lots of stuff I’ve written. And so I’ve written two books on this subject: The Little Green Book of eco Fascism, and Watermelons. And I can so guarantee that they’re a good read, that if you don’t like them I’d almost be prepared to give you your money back if you could write to me in the UK, which you probably can’t. And anyway, you won’t need to because they’re great.
Jason Hartman: That’s great. I love it. Well James, thank you so much for joining us today and shining some light… there’s so much there to talk about really. This is an endless issue. There’s just every day you turn on the news and there is some example of either what I call environmental racism, and by the way we didn’t get to talk about that but let me just explain that. I had Thomas Sole on one of my shows, and when I was talking to him I just happened to coin that term environmental racism because you look at all these high end areas, like where I used to live in Newport Beach, California where they dedicate these huge patches of open space, and all that does is make the real estate value skyrocket.
So basically, they keep certain types of people that can’t afford the area anymore out. It would seem like if you wanted to be so liberal and welcoming and sharing, you would let people in. But what they do is they keep people out with this fake open space that’s not even useful for anything. Nobody goes there – it’s just dumb.
James Delingpole: You’re going to so love the book because a lot of this stuff is in there. Thanks for having me on your show, Jason.
Jason Hartman: Yeah, well good. James, thanks for joining us and again, the website is Jamesdelingpole.com or just Google his name. Thanks for joining us.
James Delingpole: Thanks a lot. Goodbye.
Narrator: Thank you for joining us today for the Holistic Survival Show. Protecting the people, places and profits you care about in uncertain times. Be sure to listen to our Creating Wealth Show, which focuses on exploiting the financial and wealth creation opportunities in today’s economy. Learn more at www.JasonHartman.com or search “Jason Hartman” on iTunes. This show is produced by the Hartman Media Company, offering very general guidelines and information. Opinions of guests are their own, and none of the content should be considered individual advice. If you require personalized advice, please consult an appropriate professional. Information deemed reliable, but not guaranteed.
Transcribed by Ralph
The Holistic Survival Team
Guest: James Delingpole
iTunes: Stream Episode
Tags: eco-fascism, environmentalism, environmentalist movement, green movement, James Delingpole, jason hartman, malthus, population control, The Holistic Survival Show, The Little Green Book of Eco-Fascism