Jason interviews Chrysta Castañeda, author of The Last Trial of T. Boone Pickens. Get the oil and gas industry insight from Chysta, the go-to lawyer for high stakes litigation in the energy industry and beyond. Chrysta shares her experience with T. Boone Pickens and her knowledge of the current oil market problems. Before our guest today, Jason talks about Stimulus Maximus and how this plays into scarcity and utility. What makes an economic unit valuable? Look forward to our JAX Webinar this Friday at 2 PM EST!
Jason Hartman 0:00
Guess what? Do you know how many tenants are paying their rent with credit cards? And what does that mean to landlords, when tenants are using credit cards to pay their mortgage? Do you remember T. Boone Pickens? Yes, the oil and business mogul? Well today we’re going to learn a lot more about one of T. Boone Pickens, oil in business deals gone bad. And we’re going to talk about stimulus Maximus, stimulus Maximus, and we’re gonna talk about the two primary value drivers of anything in the economy or anything in life. Let’s go.
Jason Hartman 1:37
Welcome to Episode 1443 1443. Thanks for joining me today listeners in 189 countries worldwide. It’s great to have you here. So what it’s been about two years right since I moved to Florida and I have coined a new phrase, this phrase, I’ll bet you will be copied by promoters and gurus and marketers and cheap competitors that have no original ideas of their own. Yes, the knockoff people. imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Okay. Here’s the new phrase, what do you think of it? I was thinking you know, it’s almost may and the weather in Florida is still phenomenal. You know last year I remember it being a little bit hot and kind of unpleasant at this time but actually it’s still pretty great this year. And it’s been so nice for so long. That I have coined a new term being from California and having overpaid to live in California for so many years. decades. decades in California. overpaying in taxes and the cost of living and the cost of real estate remember when I left Orange County, California and sold my last house there, my P i t i plus association fees, Principal interest, taxes An insurance that’s my mortgage payment plus my homeowners association fees. were roughly $11,000 a month. That’s ridiculous. It’s ridiculous. Okay. 11,000 bucks a month, I sold my house in Orange County and I moved to live in Arizona for six years. absolutely loved it couldn’t believe how much my cost of living went down and my quality of life went up. Right. So I’m walking around yesterday and I’m thinking, you know, Florida, the weather is so great. So much of the time, it’s just perfection better than California, interestingly, and a lot cheaper, no state income taxes, lower cost of living, etc, etc. that I’ve coined the new phrase tell me what you think. Luxury weather? Yes, I think this is called luxury weather. What do you think? Hey, guess how many tenants last month as we are in crazy times right now. Guess how many tenants didn’t pay their rent. Rent now, not like what I shared with you yesterday, I’m not saying the same thing I said yesterday, yesterday, it was different. Most of the tenants did actually pay the rent, the vast majority of tenants paid their rent, and probably more people paid their rent. Then owners who on the flip side of that equation didn’t pay their mortgage. Right? But when I say didn’t pay the rent this time, I mean it differently. I mean, they didn’t directly pay because they use Guess what? A piece of plastic to pay their rent. No, they didn’t go to the landlord and say, Hey, will you take this pile of plastic? Nope. They paid with a credit card. Yes, tenants are paying with a credit cards. Hey, you know you get those frequent flyer miles or those bonus cashback points or whatever it is on your credit card. Well guess what? 30% is the increase in the number of apartment tenants This is only apartments who paid Their rent this month with a credit card compared to the prior month. So there was a 30% month over month increase. Okay, this is according to a company named zygo. That processes more than 2 million rent payments each month. And another company called in trata also found an increase in credit card usage yet they don’t have a specific number. So, 2 million tenants in apartments this does not include single family homes. Remember, stats for single family homes are hard to get. It’s like that really cute girl or a guy that you had a crush on in high school. They were hard to get okay. statistics for rental housing single family homes because it’s so fragmented very hard to get those stats 30% that’s a crazy number. Okay. Hey, today, by the way, we’re going to talk about T. Boone Pickens. Yes, the late or All billionaire, and I guess he did not pass away as a billionaire. But he was a billionaire for a long time. He’s certainly heard his name. And we have on the show today, his former lawyer, his lawyer that litigated this big case for him in Texas over an oil deal gone bad. Remember when I said litigation is a form of human rights, it is a form of human rights, just like private property rights. In fact, litigation is totally tied to private property rights. because how else do you enforce them except by the barrel of a gun or in a courtroom piece of plate right. So we’re gonna hear a really interesting story today and it’s very topical given everything that’s going on in the oil market, as the oil market absolutely falls apart, and many other markets falling apart too but oil has been very pronounced and we are going to see a serious supply demand shock When the recovery gets underway, because oil is one of those areas where the supply demand shock is going to be very pronounced, okay very pronounced. So we’ll get to that interview in just a few minutes. Very interesting lady, his lawyer talking to us. So I’ve called it you’ve heard me call it stimulus Maximus, stimulus Maximus. So there’s another stimulus package on the way as we all knew there would be the Senate passed a 480 $4 billion. That’s what the be Coronavirus stimulus bill that will inject 320 billion dollars into the depleted small business loan programs. We did a show on that that aired Saturday because we’re seven days a week right now. Well last forever. We’re going back to five here in the not too distant future. But we talked about the types of bailout loans available to You check that out on Saturdays episode if you want to see the visuals for that. It’s also on my YouTube channel. And by the way, thank you all for subscribing to my YouTube channel and engaging with the videos there. It is really taking off. Finally, we’ve never been very good at YouTube until recently, but we’re just so glad to welcome so many new subscribers and hey, the more faith you show in us, subscribe, like, share comment on the videos on YouTube, the more content we will produce so so you get to vote, and we were listening, we’re listening. So go and vote Subscribe, Like engage on YouTube. Okay, and it devotes $60 billion specifically to the SBA s e I D l program, which we talked about on the Saturday episode. And that’s the economic injury disaster loan program. So 60 billion earmarked just for that program, not the PPP, the paycheck Protection Program. Okay. $75 billion to hospitals and 25 billion to testing for you know what? COVID-19. Okay, so pretty interesting there. Now here is my comment on that. The primary value drivers as I have taught you, over the years, the primary value drivers for anything for anything. Remember, I just talked about that guy or gal you like in high school and had a crush on and
Chrysta Castañeda 9:27
what
Jason Hartman 9:28
made that person see that applies to people? What made that so valuable to you? Well, this is gonna sound kind of funny, so don’t hold me on this one, but it is true. Okay. What makes anything valuable? What makes any economic unit valuable, even a loved one is scarcity and utility, scarcity and utility. So if something is abundant, in fact, if there’s other people Do you have crushes on everywhere then? Hate? They’re everywhere. They’re not scarce. They’re not that valuable, right? Because, hey, if this one doesn’t like you the next one, I like you, right? And same thing is true. Why are diamonds more valuable than sand? Because there’s a lot more sand in the world. And the beers has cornered the diamond market and violated all sorts of antitrust laws and screwed the world over. You know, before the beers really started their marketing beers, the big diamond company, of course, before they really started their marketing. It wasn’t all about a diamond engagement ring. That was like their big marketing idea. A diamond is forever. And diamonds are a girl’s best friend. Right? So, um, you know, I don’t know the beers made both of those things. I think they did the forever thing or at least they popularized it. And the girl’s best friend, I think there was like Marilyn Monroe or something, but whatever. Okay, so scarcity and utility, the two fundamental value drivers for anything Certainly anything in the economy, and also anything, period point blank. So if the thing that makes $1, a euro or a yen, a peso, Brazilian Rio or Russian ruble, whatever those currencies the dollar, you know if what makes them valuable is scarcity and utility, then what happens when the government pumps $2.2 trillion more into the economy. And then just a couple of weeks later they pump another half a trillion dollars into the economy. And pretty much everybody in their brother knows that there’s trillions more to come trillion with a T by the way trillion with a t a big number, right? What does that mean for the future of dollars in terms of their scarcity and utility? Well, guess what? Everybody says inflation, inflation inflation, of course. The inflation monster, and we all know that pressure will always be there. And it’s coming. We’re gonna see more of it. But wait a second. Now, if you pump all these dollars in, right, and our mantra is scarcity and utility, you really need both of them. Okay? both at once. See, gold is scarce, but it doesn’t really have much utility except arguably for money, which the gold bugs would argue is the ultimate utility but the world has clearly said that, you know, there’s more money than just gold. Okay. So the dollar has been strong lately, even though they are pumping them out like they’re going out of style. Why? Why would that be? Because the dollar has so much utility, the almighty dollar, the reserve currency of the world is being hoarded and used and gobbled up. There’s so much demand for dollars. Because people need to fulfill obligations in a closed system like the US, and a taxing agency like the IRS, the IRS will only allow you to pay your taxes in dollars. In fact, if you don’t pay and they seize your assets, you know, that yacht you have in that house you have, and that second home you have, if they have to come in and seize all your x assets, right, because you don’t pay your taxes in dollars, causing more demand for dollars. Guess what they’re gonna do with those assets as quick as they can, they’re gonna convert them to dollars, they’re gonna put them on an auction, sell them gonna collect dollars and use that to pay your tax bill for you. So this is very interesting as you look at how it goes, but just remember anything that’s valuable to you anywhere in your life, scarcity and utility, scarcity and utility. There you go. You got it. Okay. Hey, we have a private podcast in our JHS Jason Hartman University members section where we post articles and podcasts and resources offer discounts to products and events and things like that. And that is on the new economic Marshall Plan, a new version of the Marshall Plan. So, Jay, ah, you members, look for that in your portal when you log in, and be sure to take advantage of that private podcast just for you. And if you’re not a member, go to Jason Hartman COMM And join us in GHQ. It’s an annual membership. And I think you’ll like it. So take advantage of it. But yeah, check out that private podcast on the economic Marshall Plan in the Jq members portal. And without further ado, let’s get to T. Boone Pickens lawyer, and let’s hear about this very interesting story. And this oil deal business deal that went bad and what the outcome was
Jason Hartman 15:00
It’s my pleasure to welcome crystal caston ADA. She is the go to lawyer for high stakes contentious litigation in the energy industry and beyond. She’s a Dallas trial lawyer and head of the cast an eight a firm, a boutique litigation firm that handles complex commercial oil and gas disputes. There’s obviously a lot going on in the energy industry right now. With prices collapsing. Her firm won a very large Bert verdict for her client T. Boone Pickens, it was 140 $5 million verdict. She is also running for Texas railroad Commissioner, and has a lot to share with us about some insights into the energy industry. And maybe a little bit about her book, The Last trial of T. Boone Pickens, Crystal, welcome, how are you? I’m fine. Thank you. It’s good to have you on. So first off, just give us a quick overview of what happened with T. Boone Pickens And this investment deal gone bad. You know many of our listeners are investors and, and we always say try to avoid pooled money investments. And oil and gas is particularly risky but T Boone Pickens is an oil and gas man. So yeah, I guess he would, you would know his way around this stuff What happened?
Chrysta Castañeda 16:18
So yeah, he Pickens invested in an area of mutual interest play, also known as an ami agreement for 15% in 2007. In the Permian, and back then the Permian had proved out it looked like it was, you know, had petered out and wasn’t really a place people were looking for oil in the wind.
Jason Hartman 16:39
This, by the way, is the Permian Basin, which is an oil reserve. Okay, go ahead.
Chrysta Castañeda 16:44
Yeah. And it’s where all the oil is being produced in West Texas now. I mean, it’s, if it were a country, it’d be the largest oil producing country in the world. So anyway, back in 2007, Pickens agreed to participate for 15% This investment deal and the idea that is it’s kind of like a series of option contracts, the parties agree that they’re going to go buy leases in certain County, certain sections. And every time they pick one up, the people agree, okay, I’m in for my 15% which means I get 15% of the ownership and the profit, or I’m passing on this one. So pick and signed up and agreed to participate in every one of those deals. And then you build you drill the wells and prove that there’s oil there and you try to do it under the radar because what you want to do is pick up as much land and as much territory and then you know, prove it out and then sell it for many many times what your investment in other
Jason Hartman 17:41
words you want to do that quietly so other wildcatters don’t get wind of it and then start competing with you to buy up the land in the in the leases of oil wells. Right.
Chrysta Castañeda 17:51
Exactly. Before you get into that bidding war. You want to prove up your land and your concept and hope you start The bidding war. That’s how you know, you put pennies in and you get millions out. That’s the kind of the concept of these deals. And what ended up happening was that one of the investors needed to bring in more of a piece of the pie to spread its risk among sub investors, which is how this gets done. And so they claimed that pic and said he wanted out of the deal, and they tried to buy his interest, didn’t end up buying his interest, but ended up taking his 15% going forward anyway. And so that’s what the lawsuit was about. And we did end up winning 140 $5 million.
Jason Hartman 18:39
How much did the T Boone Pickens invest in that deal? You never said that you said it was a 15% share, but can you disclose what he actually put into the deal?
Chrysta Castañeda 18:47
Sure, by the time we went to trial, he had a little over a million dollars in the deal. And of course the million was supposed to turn into what we claimed at one point a billion dollars. And in fact, the whole pie, it ended up being worth several billion dollars. So we were claiming Pickens 15% plus a little bit more because we were litigating the issue.
Jason Hartman 19:12
Yeah, okay. Okay, good. So basically, the the verdict, the judgment, you’ve got for the hundred and $46 million was for lost profits. That was the opportunity costs 440 $5 million. Right.
Chrysta Castañeda 19:26
Yeah, exactly. And it was pared back by a series of court rulings about which part of the properties we could end up claiming. And there were limitations issues, you know, you have to bring claim, you have to bring claims within a certain period of time in Texas. That’s four years and so all those rules got applied, and we were allowed to ask the jury for exactly what we got.
Jason Hartman 19:50
Okay, good stuff. Well, that’s a fascinating story. And the book is just about to be released, I guess. So looks very, very fascinating and Again, that’s the last trial of T. Boone Pickens. If we can shift gears though for a moment, the everybody’s talking about the Wu Han virus Coronavirus, whatever we want to call it COVID-19. And after, you know, we saw that we’re as we saw the financial markets plummet. So did the oil market. And I mean, it is just shocking to see what has happened to oil prices. You know, you know a lot about the economics of the energy industry, what’s going on, and what can we expect in the future?
Chrysta Castañeda 20:34
Well, those are great questions. So, number one thing is we’re all staying in our houses, we are not driving to work. We’re not driving to the restaurants in bars, we aren’t taking trips, we aren’t flying anywhere, that has cratered demand for oil and gas. So what ended up happening is in particularly here in Texas, but also in Saudi Arabia and Russia, they’ve taken this picture ticular period of time as the opportunity to start a supply war. So they are over supplying the market which was already over supplied. And oil has dropped down into the teens and low 20s from where it was three months ago, which was in the 60s per barrel. That’s West Texas Intermediate. And so the oil companies are hemorrhaging cash right now. And in fact, they’re being told by pipeline companies here in Texas, don’t even plan on producing because we can’t take anymore. Our storage facilities are becoming glutted with the excess supply.
Jason Hartman 21:39
Yeah, it is incredible. Incredible. They’re there. They’re actually using actually, oil tankers are now being used as storage units that even you know it’s not about shipping the oil. It’s about literally just storing it because there’s such
Chrysta Castañeda 21:55
a score and if you have such vessels or Empty tanks, you’re making money, like crazy. But the the oil companies themselves are there’s, there’s no, there’s no place for their product to go. And so we are in in a really, really challenging time for the industry right now. And so you know the Railroad Commission of Texas, which has nothing to do with railroads, it has everything to do with oil and gas It is our oil and gas regulator is for the first time in 40 years considering whether to enact production control because it was the first OPEC
Jason Hartman 22:34
so what what are we can do about this? So production control can only be as as far as Texas, though, I mean, you can’t control Saudi Arabia and Russia and Venezuela and stuff while Venezuela was a disaster anyway, but, you know, that’s a different discussion.
Chrysta Castañeda 22:51
Right. So interestingly, you mentioned that I’m running for the Texas Railroad Commission. The Republican incumbent lost his election. Which, interestingly apparently has freed him up to advocate for what republicans almost never advocate for, which is production controls. And he’s actually going to Saudi Arabia and talking with Russia, about some kind of coordinated response to try to limit production internationally. And then there are also interstate agreements whereby, you know, we could limit production North Dakota could limit production, there is a coordinated market mechanism. I don’t know that Saudi Arabia and Russia are friends and I’m skeptical that the strategy’s gonna work on that level. But I think for for Texas producers, at least, you know, the the Commission has got to hold the hearings that now oil companies themselves are asking beheld to figure out what to do about this.
Jason Hartman 23:51
Okay, so you you end the Republican incumbent, your opponent are both for production controls, right.
Chrysta Castañeda 23:59
Well, it I’m calling for is to actually dust off the machinery that hasn’t been used for 40 years, figure out whether it still works in the age of horizontal drilling and how it would look and then gather the information for, for goodness sake. The one thing we need right now is government that gathers information and acts promptly and decisively to mitigate all of these risks, you know, whether it’s a health perspective, or whether it’s markets crashing, we need functioning government, and this is what’s proving it out.
Jason Hartman 24:32
So consumers listening to this might say, well, what’s the problem here? I like cheap gas for $1 99. I mean, that’s the cheapest. I’ve seen it in forever. They’re thinking this is a good thing. But the bigger problem is, is that when you put all these oil producers out of business, and you’ll want to elaborate on this, I’m no expert, but you put them out of business. Then when you need their product again, they’re not there. to supply it, and you have this supply demand shock issue that we’re experiencing with other products right now, because China was offline for, you know, a good three plus months. So it’s a national security issue to see that we have an oil industry in the country, right?
Chrysta Castañeda 25:16
I mean, yes, you’re exactly right. And the problem with no regulation is that they’re the shocks come through unmitigated, right. There’s this what they call a bullwhip effect. So you know, it’s great right now where we’re all paying less than $2 a gallon for gasoline, even though we’re all staying home. But what is going to end up happening is that bullwhip is going to come back up to where, you know, we’re paying for $5 a gallon for gasoline because there isn’t, you know, a functioning market for oil and gas production because so many people have been driven out of business. You want an orderly transition from face to face, and we’re just Definitely not going to get that with nobody taking a look at these issues. Thank god the Railroad Commission is waking up. But for so long, it’s been asleep at the wheel. And I just hope it’s not too late.
Jason Hartman 26:11
So what what is it called the Railroad Commission? So it was a railroad thing has to do with it.
Chrysta Castañeda 26:16
Yeah, it’s over 100 years old. It was originally set up, because of all things, grain shippers in Texas, could not get the railroads to transport their grain for fair prices, and, you know, allow shipping Interstate and out of the state. And so it was set up to regulate the railroad industry. And then later on, you know, the federal government has almost exclusive control over our railway system now. And so the Railroad Commission no longer has any role to play with railroads, but it picked up oil and gas regulation about 100 years ago as well. And they’ve just never changed the name
Jason Hartman 26:59
your home. Okay, that’s fine. I mean, there’s that’s not the first agency that’s like that. But what do we do to keep it in business? You know, keep the oil industry in business obviously shales out because that’s just too expensive to produce. You know, unless oil is what, like $50 a barrel or something like that, right?
Chrysta Castañeda 27:16
Yeah. So a lot of the producers are hedged at $50. There’s a little bit of a cushion here. What’s going to happen is on I had mentioned that a couple of companies had filed a petition to have a hearing on this issue. And those companies are going to be heard on April the 14th. And I hope what ends up happening is the Railroad Commission gathers the information necessary and make some hard decisions about how to help guide the industry, and frankly, a lot of Texas jobs and a huge portion of our state revenues into a little calmer environment. But the answer is not here yet. Yeah.
Jason Hartman 27:56
So what do you expect? I mean, what’s coming down The road here, you know, we’re in such uncharted territory with the pandemic. And I don’t know that why really ever see even when this blows over, at least for quite a while, the same level of travel, you know, a lot more people are going to work at home now. I think I think these are, these are things that are going to stick with us to an extent, right.
Chrysta Castañeda 28:22
Yeah, I mean, I think there’s no question that we have been changed and will be changed by this event. I mean, we are still social creatures, we still will seek our favorite restaurants and watering holes and you know, vacations on the beach. But, you know, will it shift the way we work fundamentally to where we do more work from home? Possibly. I mean, I think there’s a lot of employers who are figuring out Yes, people can be working from home and maybe we don’t need huge real estate portfolios to house all those people at the office. I You know, your guess is as good as mine on that stuff. But I think pretty clearly, life will change as a result of this. Yeah, it doesn’t wait for the better.
Jason Hartman 29:09
Yeah, right, in some ways for the better agreed, agreed, but for sure, probably a lessening in demand for oil and other energy products as well, right.
Chrysta Castañeda 29:21
At least for the short term. I would agree with that, you know, there’s one really interesting aspect of oil and gas that doesn’t get talked about a lot. And that is plastic, you know, all you need to do is look at your clothing or your pen or your computer screen or your cell phone and realize that our lives are suffused with oil and gas, in the products that we use every day, even if we don’t drive gasoline powered vehicles. So how that transition gets made I it remains to be seen, but, you know, I think we’re going to have the need for plastics and therefore the need for petroleum products with this for a while.
Jason Hartman 30:00
Yeah, yeah, definitely no question about that. Okay, good. Well, what else do you want to share with people either about the case or the oil industry? Just Just anything I haven’t asked you?
Chrysta Castañeda 30:12
Well, you know, we started talking about the book. And I think the book is a really interesting picture of what it’s like to be in the Texas oil patch. This case was tried in Texas for five weeks. T. Boone Pickens, the former corporate raider, remember, this is the guy who terrorized Wall Street in the 1980s with his takeover attempts at 88 years old, sat through that trial every day trying to get justice for him being cut out of a deal. And so it’s a very interesting in, in my opinion, juxtaposition of his early life in his later life. And if you’re interested in trial drama at all, I’m hoping people think it’s a really interesting read. So do you think we’ll see a movie out of it? I would love to see a movie. And if Reese Witherspoon is listening, and I hope she is I think she’d be great at playing me. So we can we can cross our fingers. Yeah, there you go. But But what? What was the big deal? I mean, here you’ve got t Boone Pickens, a billionaire in I guess this is a little Podunk court or not. Am I wrong about that? I mean, I’ve never heard of the county you mentioned it, right. Yeah, you’re not wrong. So this is Texas. I think it’s normal population is about 8000 people. And you know, it’s weld with all the oil workers, right. But it is the heart of the Permian Basin. It is where I mean it is that the very center of where all this development was going on, but you know, it’s got the infrastructure of the 1950s and 60s and so, you know, the judge who presided over a trial he has three counties, one of which is low. county The only has 102 people in the entire county. This was Reed County. So he would ride circuit from from, as we call it, from county to county. And it was his first trial. And there was just a lot of a lot of really interesting, interesting things that happened, you know, when you’re trying to case in 100 year old courthouse with technology that, you know, is not really up to par. And you know, all these lawyers. I mean, we had probably 10 1520 lawyers.
Chrysta Castañeda 32:35
Yeah,
Jason Hartman 32:35
it was this. This was I guess, the state court, not a federal courthouse. Right. Correct.
Chrysta Castañeda 32:40
Yeah, most of our most of our contracts with beats in the United States get tried and stay clear, right.
Jason Hartman 32:46
If there were cross state lines, it did end up in federal court, probably. But yeah, very interesting, very interesting stuff. Well, thank you for sharing this with us and please give out your website. Obviously the book is available in all the usual places. But maybe you have a direct website you want to share with people.
Chrysta Castañeda 33:02
Sure. So the book is actually website is last trial at t Boone Pickens calm and it is out and the Amazon is delaying shipping because of the need to put out essential products right now and they’re not shipping books that you can order it directly from the publisher and that’s Texas a&m University Press and then campaign website is Christa, CH ri sta for Texas comm if people are interested in that the Railroad Commission.
Jason Hartman 33:33
All right, Kristen. Well, thanks for joining us and good luck on the election. And be well thank you and thanks for chatting. I enjoyed it. Hey, be sure to join us for our upcoming webinar. It is this Friday, and we’re going to introduce you to our Jacksonville team. By the way, they also cover several other great markets, and you will meet the team with video and we’ve got a great presenter Video pictures, lots of good stuff, where we’re profiling Jacksonville market and the team there. And we will be talking about some of our other markets as well go to bi T dot L y slash j x for Jacksonville. That’s the airport code webinar, bi T dot L y slash j x webinar and register and join us on Friday at 2pm. Eastern, and we will look forward to seeing you there a whole bunch of you have already registered. Wow, we’re looking forward to a big day with you on Friday. We’re trying to make it like meet the Masters virtually as close as we can get. So we’ll see you Friday at the Jacksonville market profile and team introduction webinar. Thank you so much for listening. Please be sure to subscribe so that you don’t miss any episodes, be sure to check out this shows specific website and our general website Hartman Mediacom for appropriate disclaimers and Terms of Service. Remember that guest opinions are their own. And if you require specific legal or tax advice or advice and any other specialized area, please consult an appropriate professional. And we also very much appreciate you reviewing the show. Please go to iTunes or Stitcher Radio or whatever platform you’re using and write a review for the show we would very much appreciate that. And be sure to make it official and subscribe so you do not miss any episodes. We look forward to seeing you on the next episode.