Holistic Survival
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The Kardashev Scale with Sanjiv Rai

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Sanjiv Rai

Jason Hartman interviews Sanjiv Rai, Founder, Chairperson, Chief Solver, and Chief Architect of multiple health tech companies. Sanjiv talks about micro fluids, the naming convention of COVID-19 and similar viruses, AI, Kardashev scale, and singularity. He also shares his work on the vaccine for Coronavirus-related strains.

Announcer 0:01
This show is produced by the nknownHartman media company. For more information and links to all our great podcasts, visit Hartman media.com.

Announcer 0:11
Welcome to the holistic survival show with Jason Hartman. The economic storm brewing around the world is set to spill into all aspects of our lives. Are you prepared? Where are you going to turn for the critical life skills necessary to survive and prosper? The holistic survival show is your family’s insurance for a better life. Jason will teach you to think independently to understand threats and how to create the ultimate action plan. sudden change or worst case scenario. You’ll be ready. Welcome to ballistic survival, your key resource for protecting the people, places and profits you care about in uncertain times. Ladies and gentlemen, your host, Jason Hartman.

Jason Hartman 0:59
It’s my pleasure to welcome Sanjeev RA, he is coming to us from Mumbai. He is the founder chairperson, Chief solver and chief architect of multiple companies. And he just knows a lot about a lot of things here. And health tech company including genic ai, which has developed cures for SARS Cove to and future related strains of the virus. He also is working with NASA to help make possible permanent human inhabit unsee of outer planets. So this will be an interesting discussion, Sanjeev welcome. How are you?

Sanjiv Rai 1:36
Thank you, Jason. Well, after four years of being interested in our work, you know, you guys made sure that we come out of our media shyness and talk to you guys, thank you so much, by the way, so if you’re not working with NASA, I delivered a project to NASA along with Princeton University when I was in the US just one,

Jason Hartman 1:57
small correction, good stuff. And and of course, for those of you who don’t know, son Jeeves work, feel free to look him up, check out his Wikipedia entry. There is a lot there. But I’m gonna go ahead and share my screen and Sanjeev just give us an overview, if you would, as to, you know, something you said to me, before we started day was very interesting about what level of civilization we are. And, you know, there’s all this talk and fear about, you know, Ai, and will it take over? Are we in danger? There’s just a lot of discussion about these things. But there’s actually a way to categorize what type of civilization we are right? And what level we’re at. Tell us about that.

Sanjiv Rai 2:41
So we’re at a civilization level, point, age, at best from looking at different calculations from the level of technology and scientific preparedness that we see. It’s an energy scale. And this has been classified by folks like others, when Carl Sagan, we have eight different levels of civilization, starting from what we do with self sustainable planet, like, you know, our energy needs are going to be self sustainable on the planet, and then we move on to become a space race. And that’s when we become civilization. 1.0. So it’s a logarithmic scale, and then it goes up to scale eight point. So where we eventually become quantum information, and our consciousness goes through this journey from civilization, one pointer to a pointer,

Jason Hartman 3:39
okay, the highest number is 8.0.

Sanjiv Rai 3:43
Yes, that’s how the distinctions have broadly been made by Carl Sagan, based on the work of a previous scientist named Carl, the shift

Jason Hartman 3:54
in you, you said Carl Sagan, right? Yes. Okay. Just want to make sure I understood that correctly. And we’re talking about the same thing. So we’ll get into that. And we’ve got some is something at the end for that. But moving on here, tell us about your work with human longevity?

Sanjiv Rai 4:11
Well, on longevity, we have figured out two pathways that we discovered through work that, you know, that has lasted over one and a half decades. And we think that there is a possibility to expand human life from anywhere between 150 years to 700 years. And these two pathways are micro, micro fluidics spaced equilibrium pathways. I don’t want to go into the scientific aspect of it since the US,

Jason Hartman 4:45
too, will just tell us in in laypersons language, what does micro fluidics mean? I mean, you know, is that is that cryogenics because I know there’s always been this problem of, you know, when you freeze can’t unthaw Is that what it’s about?

Sanjiv Rai 5:01
Yeah. So micro fluidics is more about the flow of energy throughout our system. So if you take our system as a biological system, the entire flow that happens through the different subsystems. So whether that flow is smooth, and will that flow goes in a way that we have an ability for the body to age, either at a slower pace, or at a level where we start making a constant equilibrium between our cell death and renewal of ourselves. So our cells go through this entire process, where around the age of 21, we start into a negative delta, which means that the rate of change of cell regeneration or new cells forming becomes less than the decade so the cells actually start dying more than it regenerates around the age of 21. So the whole idea is how can we extend that period that 21 to a longer period? So the graph going down, could instead have a less steeper curve and more flattening of that curve as well. So how

Jason Hartman 6:26
do you pick? How do you pick 100? And I’ve always heard that started at like 30, you know, that we all start dying when we’re about 30. But you say 21? So how do you pick those numbers of 150 years to 700 years? Where does that come from?

Sanjiv Rai 6:42
So there is a calculation based on the published statistics about the different aging patterns across the world based on different conditions, different lifestyle conditions, then you go down to the DNA level, the RNA level, and then beyond the first principles to start looking at, what is the rate of cell formation and the cell decades, and that rate is pretty much in the positive till about 21 years of our age, on an average, it’s it’s, it’s, it depends. It depends person to person, it is not a specific range across everyone. But it depends on in a different population profiles, etc. But it definitely is up to 21, that we have a positive rate of cell growth. And then it starts decades,

Jason Hartman 7:42
and therefore what how do you get the calculation of 150 to 700? years? That’s my question.

Sanjiv Rai 7:49
Yeah. So if you’re able to flatten the curve, so if you if you visualize the curve, well, you know, you start the whole aging process goes through a bell curve, like it has a peak, and then it starts into the deceleration path. Now, if you start putting flattening that curve, and that is something that you can do through some of these approaches, these two approaches that we have found that you know, through proper micro fluidics, flowing through the body, right up to the DNA level, and beyond first principles at the molecular level of the unit, the biophysics level, we get into those equilibrium, which we can start flattening further, which means that it’s the rate at which the body regenerates cells, it starts to extend beyond 21. And you age that out to say, 3040 5060. And therefore steepening of the curve starts beginning at that age, let’s say 40 5060, or even 70. And then slowly, it starts falling down, and then by around hundred and 50, it reaches a stage where you have your body systems giving up like it gives up today at the age of 80 or 90 or 100. Okay,

Jason Hartman 9:13
so let’s take this into your work with SARS. And explain to us the naming convention of you know, we’re all talking about COVID-19. Right. How does that come about? So the CEO is Coronavirus is Corona, and the V is virus and then D is disease or right and then Greg, what’s the convention all about?

Sanjiv Rai 9:37
Okay, so it started in the year 2019. And who made this naming convention based on co representing Corona virus, Corona vi for virus and D for disease and the source code to is a name of the strain which is the scientific name defined by taxonomy the taxonomy And this source code two means it’s the Coronavirus to have the source strain, the first one occurred in the year 2003.

Jason Hartman 10:10
So that was the first one. And then now, you know, we’ve we’ve got one back, obviously, it will tell us just tell us about your work on this if you weren’t.

Sanjiv Rai 10:18
So we did a 360 degree analysis, which was very outcome oriented. Very early on, when the data started getting reported, we publish out a small note on LinkedIn on the 30th of Jan, in quote, unquote, setting out a little alarm, saying that this could become a very serious strain, we will probably one of the first ones to perhaps declare, then, so far as we know, and we started to raise all the flags to all the top government officials etc, we sent the information to the health Secretary as well, in the US, and right up to the Prime Minister’s office in India. And we, we tried to raise that awareness. And then we started working on it.

Jason Hartman 11:07
Well, knowing when was that

Sanjiv Rai 11:09
this was January, January 30. And then in about February 1 week is when the we sent out these emails marking urgent. And then we’ve been constantly trying to communicate since February 1 week. And we and we started working on this early on looking at different nucleotide sequences of the virus and there are subtle mutagenesis that there is in the virus and all these different five areas that we looked at, we saw that it is not going to be an easy virus, it will have very high morbidity and mortality as it starts growing up, you know, looking at the travel patterns around the world, we saw that this would spread out quite fast, and we alerted almost everybody we could reach out to folks did not take it that seriously at that time, unfortunately, but regardless, we we kept working on and we developed a cure, we develop IP, both towards which can be useful towards a vaccine and the frog and a drug and a very specific drug to this, which is specific to the strain as against the different repurposed drugs that are being used right now on the patient. So which are, for example, the HIV drugs that have been repurposed and used, we have shown better efficacy and also toxicologically, better, safer drug than others, we’ll see how the lab tests come out. The have had some issues in getting the lab test down time, we’ve been ready since mid March with them, this is the this is a real picture of the drugs that are ready, these are the real, this is real products. Okay, now, we know so now finally, which we have a lab in the US, which has approved the SRF and is testing these, so hopefully, we keep our fingers crossed.

Jason Hartman 13:13
So the trillion dollar question obviously is will we have a vaccine? And if so, when and you know, do you think people will take it,

Sanjiv Rai 13:24
you know, what, what will be the efficacy of it, and so forth? What are your thoughts on that? So vaccines are a very important part, you know, from tours, it prevents and a very important prevention strategy across the world. But I think it is a little early right now to declare successes as we are seeing from China, for example, on vaccine development, we do not know, we still do not know a lot of things. For example, we still do not know the animal source for this virus and you know, vaccines have different effects. So, you know, we would like to see the clinical results, the clinical trial outcomes, the we focus on making the drug because we thought that is a better bet towards helping the patients and also use it as prophylaxis or word prophylaxis means is, you know, like, prevention. Yeah, for prevention. We could, we could, it could, perhaps be used. So, all of this depends on how the lab results come and we are waiting for that right now. Let’s see how it progresses.

Jason Hartman 14:31
Okay, let’s switch gears and talk about AI and humans and this idea of singularity a little bit. I’ve been fascinated by that discussion. Ray Kurzweil obviously is talking a lot about that. And he predicts singularity in 2030. Is he out of his mind, or is he right? Or what do you think?

Sanjiv Rai 14:54
Well, I do not want to talk about people or their views. I you know, I My whole life I have not discussed people, what I would like to say is based on our research and our work, we think that humans can be AI or be equal in performance. So there is something called a Ptolemaic reticular nuclei, and place in grid cells that exists in human brain. And, you know, that filters reinforcement learning for a typical development, not just in the first two and a half years, but throughout life throughout. So it constantly gives us new abilities, if we can really harness that. So there is a hedging that brain does at the rate of 250 milliseconds per event. And that is a massive room for bionics where we can improve our cognition to a level where we can be AI systems on a volumetric comparison, if not, then we would be equal. So our research has has, you know, found discovered pathways on how we could have we could achieve that, of course, you know, there are brain to brain interfaces that exists in many countries, and there is a perhaps, you know, there, there are systems that are already deployed, and you know, how AI or the, you know, brain to brain interface based systems would be used, needs a mother of all regulations, there are so many things which are important in terms of privacy, which is fundamental, and this privacy is fundamental to freedom. Our hypothesis is that not just civilization 1.0, freedom 1.0 is equally important.

Jason Hartman 16:40
Yeah, no question about it. Elan musk recently, did that demonstration, showing his neural link? What do you think about it? Yeah,

Sanjiv Rai 16:48
I think we worked on those things in I was trying to prepare different research proposals towards my engineering doctorate way back in the year 2006, when I discussed with my financial advisors at UCL, and with a couple of professors at Princeton University, who I collaborated with, and that level of research is something that, you know, I had conducted at that time, you know, where you have those chip implants, and through that you the showcase a certain, you know, certain brain activity, we are far advanced as human race, I believe, our work also has shown many advancements, and we are the level where, you know, we can pretty much map the entire brain and, and that can be uploaded on a supercomputer, and, you know, the conversions can completely happen. So, you know, the brain to brain interface means that, you know, your, I could talk to each other, and that was the topic of my research that you and I talk to each other, but we are really not talking, we are talking to the brain to brain interface through our talks, and that is that is very much now, possible, I think, my work, but it’s

Jason Hartman 18:06
not happening, I mean, we’re not doing it now. So, it’s possible, but when when do you think we’ll actually be doing this?

Sanjiv Rai 18:13
If there is enough support? I think, you know, this requires support from, you know, from governments, because this has a massive ethical dimension to it, you know, besides, that’s the reason I talk about regulation, and therefore, the most powerful organizations of the government need to support if those governments are willing to support for example, like, if the Indian government wants to support my work, then we may be able to deliver it to the government for permitted use purposes under law, or to the US government, for example. I’m pretty open, of course, not to any other government in that sense, but, you know, because these are the two countries that no stand for freedom and freedom is very central to, to my approach to life. And, and I’m interested in exploring the journey of civilizations. So, you know, we’re not just looking at now, but, you know, how could we really explore the civilizations scales from one through eight, and that requires very important support within a government system to be able to carefully calibrated and this is deliverable, you know, we we can deliver it now. It is not there in the future.

Jason Hartman 19:31
Okay. And what about quantum combining quantum computing with AI?

Sanjiv Rai 19:36
Yes, so, eventually the most powerful convergence, the most powerful advancement of human race would be the convergence of quantum and AI together where we could become a completely working quantum machines ourselves as humans. What I mean by quantum machines is that not as in you know, devoid of emotion etc, by keeping all the human qualities at the same time acquiring newer capabilities with quantum and AI, and that requires a fruitful and out of box interplay. You know, there was a very interesting work by a Texas teenager, you know, who made the recommendation problem algorithms obsolete from the quantum advancement and that feel obsolete by proving that a classical algorithm can overtake it. So, if such work is given the opportunity, and we have done a little bit of work to this kind of work, can get into the mainstream calibrated through government support, we may be able to help through that advancement. And just wrap this up for us, if you would, you started with the the civilization grading, and let’s just wrap up the whole discussion. Sure. So whole idea that civilizations can exist at a certain energy scale is just one dimension to it. My hypothesis is that we have to be a very positive civilization, we have to be able to look at the enabling infrastructure around our civilization to really transcend into the civilization 1.0 and beyond. Otherwise, we fall prey to something I call an inverse Malthusian construct, which is about technology outgrowing human abilities as against the 19th century construct of humans outgrowing agriculture.

Jason Hartman 21:30
Yeah, yeah, Mel. Mel Foose was an interesting economist. And I talked about him a lot. So how is this a reverse Malthusian? So instead of having scarce resources, and too many people, what happens in this instance?

Sanjiv Rai 21:45
So in this instance, we risk self annihilation if technology outgrows human ability as against the Malthusian construct, which was humans outgrowing the means of you know, food production or the

Jason Hartman 22:00
agriculture very interesting. And that is a risk many people are talking about. So we should all be concerned about it. Sanjeev. Thank you so much for joining us. And do you want to give out a website or I guess you’ve got your Twitter handle on the screen? For those who are watching anything else you want to know or people to know,

Sanjiv Rai 22:19
generally, we have media shy, but thanks for all four years of interest on in our work, and thank you for the opportunity to speak to your audience. But I would just like to conclude with the statement that, you know, are we capable, scientifically technologically as humans to to stop this inverse Malthusian construct and successfully transition into various levels of the civilization scale? The answer is yes, because we can beat AI. But are we capable of destroying ourselves in the journey? The answer is equally Yes. And that is where civilizational scale leadership is required across the spectrum, whether these whether it’s government, politics or in private sector.

Jason Hartman 23:04
Very good Sanjeev. Thanks again for joining us.

Sanjiv Rai 23:07
Thanks, Jess.

Jason Hartman 23:13
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